Lessons in Love and Healing with Kevin Troiano

Episode 1: Lessons in Love & Healing w/ Kevin Troiano

What does it really mean to heal?

In this deeply personal and powerful premiere episode, I sit down with intuitive healer and breathworker Kevin Troiano.

Together, we explore the raw truth behind healing: the patterns we inherit, the pain we hide in plain sight, and the journey of reclaiming our worth.

We dive into:

• The hidden weight of being a “helper-holic”
• Psychological sobriety & non-triumphant healing
• The power of showing up fully human
• Childhood trauma, identity, and how we unknowingly shape our adult relationships
• What it means to move from survival to true connection

This episode isn’t about fixing you—it’s about feeling you.

Because love isn’t something we chase. It’s something we’re built for.

New episodes every other Tuesday. Available on all podcast platforms + YouTube.

Transcript

0:36

Hey, there you beautiful souls. Welcome to Built For Love. I'm your host, Javier Ortega, and today we're diving deep into healing what it truly means, why it's essential, and how doing this work allows us to show up fully for ourselves and in all of our relationships. Because here's the thing, when we don't take the time to understand ourselves, our wounds and our patterns, we end up moving through life unconsciously reacting instead of choosing repeating cycles instead of creating new possibilities. But when we heal, when we really do the inner work, we reclaim our power. We start living and loving from a place of truth rather than trauma. And today I have someone with me who has been a huge part of my healing and self-discovery. Through our sessions together, I've been able to deconstruct deep rooted beliefs, recognize old agreements that no longer serve me, and moving to a space of more conscious awareness. Each session has been profoundly awakening, and I continue to learn from him, not just as a healer, but as a guide and teacher. He brings a unique blend of intuitive healing, breath work, and an approach that bridges deep spiritual work with the human experience. His work is centered around the idea that the desire for magic is really the desire for connection, and that in our search for larger stories, we can sometimes lose sight of compassion and presence. His latest exploration, which he calls non triumphed healing, embraces the complexity and mystery of transformation while deeply grounded in reality. I'm honored to introduce intuitive healer and breath worker, Kevin Triano. Kevin, welcome to Built for Love. For those who may not be familiar with your work, can you share what you do and how you came into this practice? Sure, sure. It, it'll be boring, but I can't, no, I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be boring, guys. No. Um, I, I love what you shared there. Um, I think, um. For me, I was, I was a music student for a long time. I played, um, the big double bass in the orchestra and did composition and I played in the Civic Orchestra of Chicago. And that was like the training orchestra for the Chicago Symphony. And you got to work in orchestra hall and play with all these people. And the, the thing I was experiencing was like how cool it was to listen to everyone's part as we came together and played the music. And, um, I ended up going over to the University of Cambridge in England for a couple of years on a scholarship. And I kept deepening my pro my process of listening. I started doing a lot of yoga and getting body work and like running and doing things. And that sort of changed my path a little bit, uh, more than a little bit. I ended up doing like different massage trainings, body work trainings, breath work stuff. And it's, uh. That's pretty much why I said it's boring because like we have more important things to talk about than how I got to the work. I think what we can talk about is sort of what you mentioned, which is, uh, the healing idea, right? Right, right. Like this profundity thing that we, that we're all grasping for. Um, but then I think the way you know, your story on how you got into it is it sounds tangible, it sounds reachable, it sounds like, you know, uh, it doesn't sound like you had to go to this like sabbatical in India and like, you know, it's, it's, right. It's pretty relatable and I think that that's, that's an awesome thing. You know, for me, over the past nine months, my journey with you has been incredibly transformative and a big part of that has been not just. The healing itself, but the shifts in how I see and move through life. How, how would you say I've evolved since our first session, and what insights from that transformation do you think would resonate with those listening who are on their path of deconstructing and rebuilding? I think your process is a great example for people around the humility that it can take to heal, which is like your willingness to come into the work and be like, you know, okay, what am I not sort of aware of? What am I, what am I needing to kind of look at? We can be, we're, we can be very tender around our lives. It's difficult, isn't it? Like for me, it totally has been like, Hey, there was this thing you didn't understand, you know? Mm-hmm. Like there's this thing you're unaware of and Right. I like being good at things. I know you do too. Yeah. And it's this idea of like, I'm only gonna do the things I'm good at. And then someone comes along and life comes along and says, it's not that you're terrible, it's just that you have an area in your life where you're normal. And it's like, yeah, no, no, not normal. I'm so sure not ordinary. Right? No. And definitely not below average high. Right? Like so because we all want to be like in the advanced placement class and the gifted student, and we wanna do well when life comes by and says, shit, it's okay. The superman in you is real, but the Clark Kent is too. Right? Your human is real. Right? And your human's like, uh. And then we feel this crisis. What I've admired about your process is you're like, you'll look at me sometimes and be like, so I thought it was this, and now you're telling me it's this. And I kind of have to look and be like, yeah, it's that. Oh. And you can feel that amazing student and child in you that's like, I gotta get this. Right. Right. Like how helpful you were as a kid, how sensitive you are to everybody. I really resonate with that, that sense of, you know, trying to help everyone and wanting to be about all the right things. That's why we talk about that helper holic thing, where you're like, I wanna fix everybody. I'm gonna help everybody. And when we become conditioned as helpers to like know everything and fix everything, our identity is that we are more aware than everybody. Right. And the sad part in some of our lives when we're kids is that you can be, you can be the most aware person in your family. Mm-hmm. When you're a little kid and you're like. You know what? They, they don't see me. But what makes me special and magical is that I know more and I'm not as stressed by life as they are. Yeah. And it's like, no, you just don't have permission to be stressed. Oh, that is so good. You don't, you don't have permission to like, how was your day? You know, that's not happening. You're like, is everyone okay? Right. Yeah. I'll clean the house. I help out, I'll do everything I can. Like I don't wanna be a burden. I don't wanna bother anyone. No, I, I, I mean, I was a serial people pleaser for sure. That's, and so you were, you know, when I say to someone like a helper ho is a, a difficult problem because a, it's a problem everyone benefits from Right. And alcoholic or somebody else who's doing drugs, you're like, it's destructive. But a helper is like, I'm gonna help everybody. And no one notices like a workaholic. They don't notice the problem.'cause they're like, there are good things about this thing you do where you're fixing everything. Yeah. And that's what you realize. Like, and I've gotta fix it and I've gotta this and I've gotta that eventually the brain feels this enormous pressure to do a great job and then it oversimplifies. Some of the details. Mm. Yeah. It, it stops reading the novel and it goes, where are the Cliff notes? I just want a short, quick summary of this. Right.'cause we don't, like, sometimes the pages are like, uh, the details. Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's what you've shown me is a lot of courage as you're like, I really wanna do this and I really wanna do it. Right. And I'm like, sometimes it's complex, sometimes it's just not fun. Right. And I've been like, it should always be like fun and triumphant and, and enthusiastic and like there it's happening for me, the breakthrough is happening tomorrow. Right. And it's like, okay. Breakthrough's kind of a drug, right? Yeah. The helper holics like, I'm powerless against enthusiasm. I'm powerless against profundity. Right, right. We have to kind of own that. We can get super excited. Right. And super cheer leadery. But a lot of your healing is like ungluing, the pompoms from your hand for others. Oh, you, you call and and the last session that we had, the third one. Yeah. Uh, you called me a walking pep rally and I could not think of a better description because that is on point. Well, it's, it comes from that space, right, of like I said, like that we both can feel I resonate with that. Right. When you come in for sessions, it's more like a helper holic meeting where we're both talking about like, man, this, yeah, this helping a hurt world, right? Yeah. People are not thinking the way you're thinking, so never forget that for the people who might be listening, like you are walking the road less traveled. Most people aren't gonna be thinking about these things, right. Just take a deep breath. You don't need to solve the problems of the world. You don't need to fix the whole thing. And that's what's cool about what you do is like you are walking the road less traveled. You're like, I wanna look. What can I see? And that's a beautiful thing. And when people can do that, that's great. Yeah. I love how you integrate both like a spiritual and an embodied approach in your healing work. Could you break down how those two perspectives compliment each other in the journey of self-awareness and in transformation? You know, when you mentioned that idea of like non triumphant healing or non triumphant consciousness, I was very similar to you and to a lot of people. This desire for spirituality and energy is very strong. Mm-hmm. And. I think for me, um, what has happened in my life around sort of like psychological sobriety, what I learned through my own process was like certainty for me spiritually and energetically was like cocaine or something else for somebody else. Hmm. And I realized that my ego wanted to use that certainty to try to help others, but it mostly wanted to use it. I made a joke to myself like, do you want to help or do you just want the credit? Mm. Oh, that's good. And my ego, my ego was like, oh, I, I just want the credit. Like I want to be the ultimate helper of all time. You know? Like, I wanna, I wanna fix all of it today, right? I'm gonna help the world. And it's like, I looked at that poor little boy and I'm like, why do you have to help everybody? Why do you have to fix everything? Why do you have to take care of the world? And the answer was, um, because I can only like myself if I'm a superhero, I. Mmm. And I know you resonate with like, if I'm not doing magical and amazing things in the connection. Absolutely. I mean, I felt like I, if I was good at everything, I was important. I was seen, I was heard. Yeah. If I, you know, if I could fix people over, I could help them. You know, it is beneficial, official. So you're like, everyone seems to like it when I do the helping. I mean, I left music and creativity in my own sort of self-expression because I was like, it's selfish in a world that's this hurt. I need to help this world. Mm-hmm. So it was kind of the helper coming back on one level. I was right because I didn't just wanna make sound and do all that stuff. As much as that was cool and fun, but also my ego was like, I'm gonna help everybody. That's what I'll do. Right. And what you end up realizing is like there's a lot of compassion for what people go through, but. When, when whoever we're talking to anyone's thinking about this stuff, it's so nice to have people that are taking the time to do that because it's exceptional. Mm-hmm. And the healing that you know, you and I can do and that you can help me with and I can help you with. And the kind of helper holic meeting is like, look, let's just, let's just do our part of this knowing that, you know, it's gonna do whatever it's gonna do. Right? Yeah. And, and be honest about that. Like be really honest about it. Right. It is the road less traveled and it's very special that you're doing, and it's special for anyone who's out there trying to do it. It's exceptional. Right. And it's, it makes me think of too, um, you know, when I went into getting my certification for life coaching and spiritual life coaching Yeah. It was very much like, let me get all these other things added onto that. Right. Because I do energy works, but I don't have, um, necessarily experience and like reiki and that's what a lot of people see and they're like, oh, so it's like, let me get certified in this and this and this and this and that. And I had a moment and it. It a few months ago, I think it was after one of our sessions, and it was like, all of that is great and I can wave my flag trying to fix everybody saying like, you know, I can do all this for you, but that. When it comes to the healing itself, like I, yes, it's helped me, but it helped me because I, I was looking for it. Mm-hmm. I was moving towards that. I was trying to figure out different avenues, like to try to force that, or maybe not force that, but to try to like wave that flag of like, Hey, I can do all this for you in front of someone. Like, they're not going to resonate with it unless they're looking for it. Mm-hmm. So it's like, you know, I've taken a step back and this is what, this is how I show up and this is also why I'm doing this podcast. Because, through a lot of the people that have been mentors to me or that I look up to, I've been able to hear their stories, you know, and how they've healed. Right? Yep. Being, it's, it's relatable and, and being able to bring that to the podcast because I've, I've expanded so much in, in self-love and in love in general. Um. it, it allows me to just show up more authentically and, and bring to the table rather than trying to pull in Yeah. Psychological sobriety. Right, right. Is that sense of like, Hey, we're here as a couple of people and I. We're here and gone. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. Like the Buddha when he was, you know, not that I'm a huge fan, but he, you know, he was a guy and one of the pe, one of the sets of people he taught were these fire worshiping ascetics, and they were meditating and looking at the fire, and they were like, oh, the fire, it's impermanent. Everything is on fire. And the Buddha's like, you're fires are redundant. You're on fire, you're gonna die soon. Like, what do you wanna do with your life? Right. You're not outside of the process watching it, which is what, as helpers the drug is. Mm-hmm. When you were a kid, you were like, I'm less real, I'm less human. They're more human, and what they're going through is more vulnerable. More. Right. And so what happens like math, like you become in healing and in thoughtfulness, like calculus and trigonometry, and then you encounter people whose problems are like flashcards. You're like, well, that problem is this. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But your problems are just multiplication tables. I can do that in my sleep. Right? And then the, the helper in us is like, see, I know things. See I'm okay. See I'm this right. And that's the drug we keep doing. So when we do this, it's, that's so good. Yeah. It's psychological sobriety. We're sort of saying like, you know, when, when we were children. Our lives in different ways affected us profoundly and changed our lens. Right. And made us think we've gotta do something about this. Mm. That's the drug. Your brain is literally telling you, I have to fix this whole thing and you're younger than me and you're learning this and I'm proud of you.'cause I'm like, he's getting this earlier. It took me five decades to finally reach. So I think for me it's a dance between being like, I have no idea. I have no way of knowing. Right, right, right, right, right, right. So it's a way to confront the, the way that human experience when it's hurt goes, can go really big. Right. And then bringing it back and being like, that may all be there. You could be totally right. But the human experience is like anaphylaxis. Like it's like really hard to be with. Mm-hmm. And the reason it's hard to be with is'cause it moves more slowly. Mm, mm-hmm. Right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Language moves more slowly, all that stuff. So that's really what you show me is a lot of courage of being like, alright, what's, let's have the language about it. Like, let's learn how to talk through it. Right. Yeah. That's a, that's a huge leap. Yeah. That's been, it's been very, um, awakening for me as well. Um, you know, for me, one of the biggest realizations that I've had through our work together is that we often don't move from true choice, but from conditioning and unresolved experiences. Can you speak to how your approach helps us break free from those condition responses?'cause I know, uh, you know, for me it really has like, it's, it is been a lot of conscious awareness diving and, and, and so what are your thoughts on that? I think when I think of your situation, I think of. The, the unreality. Sometimes I have to pinch myself a little bit when I think about things you've gone through and who you've decided to become. Because a lot of people who go through like half as much as you went through are really not okay and they aren't helping in the world, just so you know. Um, so for me to have an opportunity to see someone who goes through something, it's important to remember like when we think back to the hurt people that may have been around us when we were younger, right? And think about the choices and the decisions they made. I once had a mentor in Chicago describe like abuse as in certain cases, a person meeting their needs without the other person's permission. And it was never, I had never thought about like. Perpetrators of abuse or other things is anything other than these villains. And what he was helping me see is like, well, when I hear their stories, I understand'cause he worked with like people who were not okay or whatever. And um, he's like, you, you understand why they think it's okay for them to do it. Like you hear the stories. Um, and that's why sometimes I think about mental illness when people talk about that. And I'm like, sometimes maybe, but I think it's more trauma induced dysfunction than mental illness. Like, I don't think they come out of the gates necessarily mentally ill maybe, I don't know. Right, right, right. But trauma induced dysfunction is way more likely, right? Like that several things happen that the person just really has a hard time making a better choice. And I think the thing that some of the people listening might also be like you in a way because they might be curious enough to be like, you know, to understand that they actually had an extraordinary response. To the pain that they inherited as it as it went through one generation after the next, maybe each generation did five, 10% better, but they mostly passed it on. And then there's people like you who are like, no, it ends with me. Like I'm not doing five or 10% better. I'm totally changing the trajectory of how this goes. Right. And probably a lot of people listening I would guess are similar people who've like went through a lot and their whole thing is like, I'm not gonna let that bring me down. And the the, the challenging thing is like reminding you of being like, that's a lot to go through and it's a lot to heal. And we dealing with how much we are hurting in our families, one generation after the next and how much they struggle and then just how much they have a challenge of how to do better. And I can look at that and own where like, wow. Like I said, ooh, I, I thought I had escaped some of the trauma of my child that I had two brothers. And I'm like watching them have a hard time a little bit. And there I am off at, off at the Magical Colleges and golden boy, like, I'm not gonna be affected the way they were. And I was wrong. I just had buried it and hid it away from myself. Way better. Right? And you can, you can relate like, God, I have this place. I put it so that I don't have to kind of deal with it. And then it, for me, it kept percolating up. And it could lead to explosions. It could lead to me being completely like, totally outta control and being so angry because I was like, no, I have all this under, I understand all this. Nothing is, nothing's there for me to learn. And then I had people in my life who were loving and caring, who were like, interdependence, you think you know all this by yourself, but we know things you don't know. And I hated it. I was like, oh, then that means I don't know everything. Right? And then I felt compassion for that little boy to be like, you don't need to know everything. Like it's not your identity. Other people also know things and they can help you. And it was scary. It was really, really scary. And it, it can continue to be scary for me to be like, I missed that person, or I need that person right now. I go, ar and then I'm like, no, it's true interdependence, right? Yeah. Yeah. And we can feel that together. Like when we talk about healing, you can be like, I can bring some stuff to your attention. And you're like, Hmm, I really don't like what you're gonna say. And I'm like,'cause we're going to that shitty area, right? Of like, ugh, you're going to the place where the stuff lives. And like, yeah, I'm sorry, but it's, it's not, it's not fun. I, I know. And then you're like, yeah, I'm okay. Let's go. Right. I'll, I'll challenge you to do something and give you a chance to think about it. And usually you'll come back to me and be like, okay. Right. I'll do the thing I kind of don't wanna do, because. It doesn't leap out as me out at me as Right. But it is the right challenge. Yeah. And a lot of it too has been just something that I didn't realize was there. So it's like, it's like that ego, like thinking I really know myself. Like I've done all this work to know myself and, and so then like in our last session, one of the first things you told me was there's like this dormant depression. Mm. That's surfacing. Yeah. And I'm like, they, you know, that didn't show up in our first two sessions, but is showing up. And for me, my reaction was like, no, like I've never been depressed. I don't get depressed. Like, that's not like I, I'm a very happy person, right. Like I'm a lightworker, I'm this, I'm that. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, you know, I. Having that awareness starts to open up like the, oh, shit. Like I've been looking at my life completely like trying to like protect myself. Mm-hmm. And, and I have to look at it for what it is. Like I never felt the pain that I should have felt. I never, that's huge. Yeah. I never related to depression because it was a choice not to and mm-hmm. Now I realize that or others were cornering that market. Right, right, right, right. Others were that way. Right. Yeah, exactly. Others, others were affected. And that's how others become more real in the child's mind. The child cares deeply about the pain of the others around them. Mm-hmm. And then they become. More in need of love and the child's like, I can help. And then those people receive the help and they're like, oh, that's good. Right? And then the kid's like, I helped, I helped, I fixed, that's why I'm good is I, I fixed and I'm not like that. And I'll never be a burden and I'll never have the feelings you have because you are human. And I'm less human. And what makes me special in the big family is that I'm less human. Right? No, it's, and it's, it's, it's, uh, I was the walking pep rally and I was, you know, I was the one that had the answers and, and the fixer and the more calm one. But really I was, what am I hiding in plain sight. I was hiding pain. I was hiding, you know, things that I was creating them. Uh, you know, when you are in a, um, when you are, you know, when you're a child and you are in a situation where you're being molested or being abused, you know, a lot of the times that abuser will. Will create that special experience between you and them. And so for me, as someone who mm-hmm. Lacked a lot of attention, who lacked being seen, who lacked being heard, those moments to me were like, yeah, they were special because I'm getting attention. And so I go my entire life knowing and being fully aware of those moments. But they were special moments. They were like, feel good moments, right? Special moments. And now I'm, they were, they were confusing moments where the wires got crossed in your nervous system, right? Because of neglect. You were open to connection, whatever terms, and they weren't entirely Okay. Physical experiences either, but there was a crossover and a confusion, right? So that you're receiving attention, but it is completely not okay. Exactly. And your nervous system was told or had it framed as a special experience. I mean, one thing is like to really slow down that in, I want to say sort of like whatever you decide to do. Like, you don't need to include that in this podcast. Like what you just shared is very personal and very much your life. That doesn't need to be anything that anyone else knows by the way. Um, and two, if you decide to share it and you decide to include it, um. What I would say is a lot of what we work on is trying to help people do a better job with you. Hmm. That's a lot of what we were talking about sort of before we began today. Right. Was like, what would it like, be like to create a situation where someone learned how to be a better friend to you and you were receiving that more than leading it. Right. And that's hard. The receiving is difficult and you know, that's, you went, you went way deep there in sharing that piece of having someone, um, again, someone who was not okay, who was a little bit older than you, uh Right. You know, was not okay. Uh, decide to, sounds like do to you probably things that had happened to that person. Right, exactly. And then decide that that was okay because that person was gonna be bigger, older, and in control, which is likely how that pandemic of harm was being experienced possibly in the family circle for all we know. Right. And so. That that is an example of like your mind surviving and reframing the experience as something that is somehow volitional, that it's like something you were okay with because it didn't have a choice. It had to just decide I was okay with that. Right. And then it tries to give it different headings. It tries to make it so that it was okay that, that it was, that was the way it was supposed to go. Right. Um, and whenever you hear anyone say, my life went exactly how it was supposed to go, I'm exactly who I need to be. This is exactly how everything was meant to be. It's like, okay. That I don't mind that as a chess piece on the, like the foundation. Mm-hmm. And we don't wanna overemphasize like the things we go through, but it's definitely not your tendency to emphasize the impact of the things you went through. Right. Your tendency is the other thing, which is harder to embrace because we have a world. That is deeply overconnected to every little thing that hurt me. Really, really hurt me. And I'll never be okay. Ever. Right? Or I don't even want to talk about all the things that hurt me. I just wanna do things to change how I feel. Right? Like, like people who are committing crimes or who are hurting people are doing it because they're like, I get to do this because I, you know, I didn't get held enough as a kid, right? And I get to do this now. You know, like, so. If we look at a world that is totally embracing all of its anger and rage and tantrum and upset.'cause it is, you are. You're like, I don't want to be one of these people who says that I was affected by what happened to me. Because I live in a world where everyone is, I can't believe it's like this. Right? 90% of the globe is like that. And you're like, I don't wanna be like that. I'm like, no, you have every right to be like, that was way too much and I couldn't integrate it. Right. And that's a genuine moment for people to see that someone's taking a real risk and they get to see you kind of process that you are this very thoughtful, very considered human being who can remain steady as you open your heart up to the sadness of everybody in that situation. Right. And the sadness of the choices they made. Like David Elliot, I think told me the breath worker guy that he had worked with, people that together that. Whether whoever it was who had abused the person, they, they came in for a session and worked together and they owned the thing that kind of came through that process of abuse. Wow. And did repair around it. Unusual, uncommon, yeah. Most people will take no responsibility for that, so it's very uncommon. But it's important to remember that that healing in this case, in that case, means realizing that that poor kid's lens was changed and like Hiroshima, like the bomb hits, and then the radiation of the trauma lasts through decades. Yeah. And then you're like, wow, I'm still sorting through. How that changed things. Right. And it matters. And, and that's where like conscious awareness, you know, I, I, again, I hadn't been seeing it that way, so I also wasn't fully, I also fully didn't know who I was as I was moving through certain parts. Even like specifically because that was a sexual experience. Right. You know, I didn't know that I was moving the way that I was moving sexually from that trauma. Right. And then you were, you were also targeted'cause it wasn't Right. Your mind decided it wasn't trauma. Exactly. So you were then targeted by people who were sort of subconsciously aware, right? Mm-hmm. That the limping gazelle, the little, you know, the, the, the predator in them could be like, Ooh, I, I see the part of him that was, it was, it was a lot of like sexual experience. So much that like, it, that became my identification that, that, like, I identified myself through how I showed up in sex. So your brain was constantly trying to make this violation. Okay. Right. And then constantly trying to say that there was an order to this disorder and a way that this thing that was completely not okay was just part of who you were. That's an incredibly important thing for anyone listening that they like, want to make it. Like people do that. Like if they're neglected or they're hurt or other things are like, it's because I'm not good. It's because I'm bad. It's because I'm not who I needed to be. That's why they couldn't love me or something. Mm. No one likes to say like, they were hurt. They didn't know how to love me. I was great. They just couldn't see it. Right. And if you, if you put any other child in the situation you were in, you would, you would cringe. You would, you would. Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. You would be terrified. Absolutely. And what the, what the helper Holics brain does is it says, actually it's okay because I'm not like a normal human. Right. And where the, where the ego, where the dangerous shadow dimension of the helper holic comes in is the helper holic very quietly and is precocious little Mozart hyper maturity, the forced into being like. Very, very aware and conscious and helpful at a very young age. Mm-hmm. Because the child in, in that situation is not receiving normal input. The child goes very big into the cosmos and says, the way I am special, unique, and different, which every child needs to feel mm-hmm. From their parents and their family. But in, but in your case did not happen. My case did not happen either. They, they say I'm different from, better than, and in the midst of that is huge, is very, very low self-esteem. Right. Right. So you go into relationship, I can go into relationship and we can be like, I have to save and help and do and help and do all this stuff. And on one level it's, I have to do 10 times the amount that the other person's doing in order to be worth their love.'cause they're so great on the other side, it's, I'm just better and different and magical. So it's a weird combination of like. They say an aa, the egomaniac with the inferiority complex. Right, right, right, right, right, right. So the hardest part of your heart, my heart, anybody who's listening is like, we really can feel that we're different. And if anybody listening is in a relationship with people who they've, their whole lives, they've given so much more than they've received, which I think a lot of people will resonate with. Mm-hmm. They have to smile at themselves and say, I so want this to change. And I'm like, Hmm. Kind of, uh. Right. Right. It's not straightforward to change that because when we can help the other person and the other person's really human and we're magically helping them all the time, we feel less human. And we're just like, that's such a burden to help everybody, but I'm helping. Mm-hmm. But when do I get anything from me? Right. And I'm like, if you get something for you, you will be terrified. Relate with that. You'll not be relieved. You'll be terrified because suddenly you're not an expert. And for the helper holic, the entire identity runs through. I'm an expert. Right. And for me, like I said, it, the problem is so severe that it took me five decades to be like, you're good at what you're good at. Right? And there's a class, you're getting a D minus in. Can we talk about that class? Right. There's a class that you have failed in. Can we talk about that class? Mm-hmm. And it's kind of like my ego was like, I got straight A's and I'm like, yes and an F, can we talk about the F? And it was like, no, because no matter how hard I work at that F, I'm only ever gonna get a C. And I had friends be like, that's okay, right? And I was like, it is, it is okay. I don't have to be perfect in that class'cause I can't be. You've taught me so much about that. Like permission to not be perfect in every way. Right? Right. See, so we're learning that together. Yeah, that's, I love that. Why it's like a meeting when you come in for session, it's like, what is Javi teaching me today? It's not like, what do I know that I can bestow upon Javi? It's much more like, see, this is the first time I'm hearing this.'cause for me, it's like I tell everybody every time I go to him, it's such a transformative, impactful, life changing experience. Because it is, but it's, you know, it's, it's amazing that I, I could have that effect, but go, no, I'm stealing insight from you and charging. It's a great situation for me. Good to know. Good to know. It's like, yes, I get to do hobby. Does that mean Andy's pain? Does that mean I can do half off? I'm I'm giving you two. Um, no, but it's, yeah, like, you know, and for the longest time being in that position where you are like different where you are. Of special, like you look at other people's experiences because that's what you do. Mm. Right. That's what you do. You're the observer. You're like there to try to see where you can fix. And you, you hear and you see that people go through all these things and somehow that wiring gets you to say, you know what? Like they've been through things worse than me. And like my things were like, what made me feel special? Mm. But part of this experience, I've learned like everybody's story is fully valid. Like I did not see mine as valid because I know people who have experience just way more intense things, but just'cause they experienced that doesn't mean mine wasn't just as loud for me. That's amazing that you can, that you can begin to say that is the beginning of shifting in your heart from survival, which is certainty. Like we have to have these deflective responses. In order to just be like, well, people go through difficult things. Life's tough for everybody. Come on, everybody. Like, right, there's something, there's something other people should think that, right? Other people should be like, I've gotta stop complaining about things and I've gotta start to have gratitude for what I have. Most people should try to do more of that. Mm-hmm. But for people who are having this issue of overgiving and like genuinely are like, the world's a hurting place. I want to help. I want to feel better, I wanna be okay for everybody. That you would step more towards your human. Good, because you're moving away from the larger picture to the smaller picture. Right. So the kid was kicked out of the smaller world, into the larger world by what happened. Right. And then he's like the larger world. The larger world. And you'll receive a lot of compassion guidance in that world. But it's generally gonna be like, come on, come back, come, come back. Right. Come back, come where you're supposed to be. You're supposed, you know, it, it's, it's balance. It's not easy to be, it's not easy to be Right. Right. Like you, like you just in your heart connected very courageously to like, oh my God, it, it does matter. And then for me, the crisis was, wait, if my problems matter, what is the whole world gonna do about the problem it has? And I had people help me be like, I understand where the question's coming from and there is genuine concern. Mm-hmm. But. Your addiction is actually that you are asking way bigger questions to get away from Right. Your day-to-day mental health wellbeing. And that's the thing, it's, it's a, it seems like such a valid question, but it's like a Right, no valid question. It's a really big cosmic concern that justifies itself, but is not actually really caring. And, and that's very confusing for me. That's what I've struggled with in my life. It's like, what about the big question? Right? Like what about avoidance of your own problems? Oh, right. And, and that's the thing is I was so focused on, you know, this greater purpose for over a decade and, you know, me stepping into that and whatnot, to the point where like, you know, in our last session, which was in November, a few months ago. Mm-hmm. You know, one of the things you told me is. Which we hear a lot, right? We're spiritual beings having a human experience. But I hadn't been having the human experience. This was before like I, it surfaced up that I had gone through this pain that I didn't realize was pain, but it was like, yes, we're hu yes, we're humans having the hu Yes, we're spiritual beings having the human experience, but have the fucking human experience. And for me it was like, for the first time in five months, I realized a lot. And one of the things I realized was like, holy shit. Like I. I'm broken heart. I'm really fucking broken hearted. Wow. And I've been operating off of a broken heart, and I've been alchemizing and I've been, and that's great. And that's amazing. Like, I'm so proud of who I've become in these last five months. But dude, you're hurting. Wow. You're hurting. And that led me to, to, to discover and dive into that inner child or that the, my childhood experiences and the feeling, the actual pain and feeling depressed. And then a few weeks later, I realized I haven't just been heartbroken for the last five months. I've been heartbroken my whole life. Like the one person that I wanted there for me, my mom, you know, she, she couldn't, she was, was working two, sometimes three jobs. And that was the most important person to me and for her to not be there. Since I was a child, she's always told me, I trust you. Like you have this, like, mature energy and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. But that was part of the problem is, is you know, I, I respect you and I always have, and I always will because you did what you had to do to keep food on our table and a roof over our head. But the fact that you weren't there, things happened. Things happened. Yep. Because I, you know, you, you. They say like, you, you don't keep your kids busy, that you're gonna find a way to be busy. You know what I'm saying? And for somebody who wasn't getting that attention Yeah. Who didn't feel seen, didn't feel heard, it's like I, I embraced those traumatic experiences. Right. I embrace that special experience. And, and now, you know, and, and throughout my life, like my mom would completely not act or not do the same things, but she very much had to dismiss me so much. And so it's like, not only from a child, it's like throughout my life, my heart just kept breaking and breaking and breaking. Mm-hmm. And so it took me, I think three weeks after our session, I, I had to, I had to, I had to do that. Like we were, like we were talking about, or we were talking about earlier. It's that generational healing. For me it was like a lot of people would not speak up about this, but I have. Through this, through diving into this healing, I've been given, for lack of a better word, this gift of this conscious awareness of like understanding. Like if I don't work on this broken heart mm-hmm. Like I'm still gonna be carrying the weight of that. And, and so to have this beautiful discussion with my mom that I, never, I never thought in this lifetime I would be able to have, was so healing for both of us. Wow. Okay. Because for her, she resisted vulnerability. She's gone through so much trauma. And again, like, I'm gonna say it, but I'm probably saying it from that old way of thinking, but like a lot of the trauma she went through and the, through the stories that she would tell me, it's like way worse than what I went through. Right. But either way, it's. Both are valid. Mm-hmm. Right. And so for her, she just learned to but to study how the mind does comparisons and says way worse. Right. Right. We're we're really dealing with, you know, that you were more aware of her trauma the whole time than she was ever aware of anything you were going through. Mm-hmm. Like you were that young kid and after that happened to you, like you didn't think, I'll go to her and say, is this okay? Because you didn't sense that she was okay enough to hear that. Right. You didn't go to her with a question about your experience because you didn't want to be a burden. Right. So your whole life as her child, you've been more aware of her trauma. So of course her trauma is more than you went through because you were hardwired since you were a kid, to be the person who was gonna care about her. Were you the oldest? No, I'm the, I'm the youngest. The youngest? Yeah. How many years Separat separated between the siblings? Oh, so my brother's eight years older than me and my sister is six years older than me. So this is a good gap of time. It is, yeah. And so that's why like even at this time where I'm growing up we have a different relationship with my mom. They grew up with my mom in the household. So they tell my mom everything. Hmm. I didn't grow up my mom with, I grew up with my mom sometimes not seeing her for days.'cause she would go on these inventory trips and for work. I don't want to, I, so when you say, my mom went through more than me, you're like, oh, no, no. So notice how the helper's like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm the one that's gonna say who went through more or less, but I'm not going to have the person notice that I went through something. Right. And that's, that's our healing. Our healing is, hey, you went through something and, It took me 25 years of working with people to be ready to work with like helping you. Right. So remember like I had to go through a lot of my own stumbles and stuff. So I guess what I'm trying to say and what people can notice is that it's very hard. You've done an incredible service to someone by being like, man, it's really hard to know. But anyone watching would be like, wow, he's great. I can't believe we went through that. I really care that, that's so sad that he went through that. And what you and I would both feel is like we're not used to someone noticing Mm. That we went through something. Right. Ah, so it's actually. While we wanna be good at everything, it's very, very uncomfortable. And that's why the system is like, you had the courage, we're, we're talking about you. You're putting yourself out there. I'm not like saying, here's what I went through. And then you're like, oh my gosh, really? And like, so you're the one who's courageous today. And I'm just sort of watching that and everyone gets a chance to see that. But it's so courageous to do that and show them how we react to hearing a little bit about her story. Right. And you're doing a great job being like. Wow. It was complex. Yep. I'm strong. I want to understand it, but it definitely did affect me and it affected me because I want to be able to decide what everything is. I don't always wanna feel how things actually feel. Mm-hmm. Right. I don't want to be shown what something is. Mm. It is like the, the real healing stuff, like you asked that main question, like the real healing stuff is just. The fucking worst. It's just, it's so not easy. It's, I, listen, I tell people like, it's no fun. There's nothing about it that's delightful. It's just not easy for like a decade or for over a decade. I thought, you know, you know, you do this healing and you jump into like your own, you know, your inner work, your spirituality, and it's like, life feels like you're living above everything else, right? Yeah. Or not above, like in a better way, but yeah, above it's like you have this grand awareness and so you don't have to be that angry human that's, you know, stressed all the time. But my condolences to myself and to anyone who dives into this deeper work, because it is embracing the pain. Mm-hmm. It is like fully, um, being uncomfortable. And, and with that, I will say there's a lot of, um, it gives you more conscious awareness, but it also gives you, it gives me, um. I think a better connection to, to everyone else. So I, to me, the work is absolutely worth it. But it can fucking suck. Yeah, it suck. It can suck and it hurts. And now I see like why people run from it. Mm-hmm. Right? It's like, why are you running? Like, it's amazing, but no, like it's sometimes it's, you just have to accept that it's not amazing. And if anything, it's taught me to like, at this point in my life, because I still feel like I am in a season of, of. Of some intense inner work. It's, it's a day by day situation. Like I used to feel like I had to have my life figured out. I used to feel like I had to have my grand purpose figured out. And at this point I'm like, day by fucking day. Like, like make sure you're not only healthy right. But make sure you're well. Mm-hmm. And make sure that're you're ready to take that step into interdependence. Now what's starting to happen is you're starting to realize, like, like we said, the Superman's Real and the Clark Kent's Real, and what's happening is your human is coming up being like interdependence. Right? My life up until now was a solo superhero movie. The rest of my life needs to be an Avengers movie where I like meet other people that are like that. Right. That are different and differently gifted because it's true. Yeah. I mean, we're not gonna save the world at all, so don't worry. Mm-hmm. Uh, or rather worry, but just let it go. Like we're not, we're. The Avengers are not going to save the world in the case of like, you are exceptional and you need to meet more people who are like you. Mm-hmm. Right? We know that if everyone in the world was like you, it'd be a very different world. That's true. Because they'd be thinking about others and we don't see that. Right? Right. We see, you know, we see documentaries on serial killers. We see, we see stories of someone who decided it was okay to kill 15 people or bury people in their basement. Right. So I watch that stuff a lot to be like, what do people do? And then I watched like wars and other things, and I'm like, what are we generally doing in this world? And then I realized like, okay, this is very exceptional. What we're talking about is exceptional. So if you claim within yourself the solo superhero that you've been in your life, know that life wants you to have an Avengers movie where you meet other people that are like you, that can allow you to be more human and you can allow them to be more human. And then it goes better. Mm. Right. So that's really what we can maybe offer Anyone who's listening is like, this is a very, it's a very not important group'cause we're not gonna do anything really. Wow. Right, right, right. But, but we are going to, we, we have a right to meet people who I. Have an ability. And that's what most helper holics don't believe. They don't believe that they can ever meet anyone. I, I would bet that a lot of people listening are the exceptional person, the exceptional people in their lives. And they're like, but it's different for me and I love everyone and my family, and I love everyone here, and I've gotta take care of everyone. And each of them would feel what you and I feel, which is, that's what I'm different that way. It's really different for me. Hmm. And it's like, yeah. Um, that's why it's a meeting. What are you hiding in plain sight? Like Right, right, right. What we would say to them is that we are all scared, just like you are, of meeting something that shows us that we're normal and we're human too. Right. That is our death sentence. Right. I learned that I was normal and that I didn't know how to ask for what I needed and that I Right. That I, for me, it's like I never got to be, um, safe enough. And so later on in life it was like, how many limits could I push if someone loved or cared about me? Like how far could I push them and know they were still going to love me? Mm-hmm. How much could I destroy? And then be like, oh, your diaper is full. Let's clean you up. And I realized like, what part of me needed to make such a mess at different times in my life, just to have people be like, that's okay. Right. I'll make the mess that you made. Totally. Okay. And I was fortunate enough to have many people in my life who got me through. A whole bunch of personal diaper changes where I was, you know, like a little 2-year-old, right. I'll destroy everything. And it's like, no, you're 30, you're 40 years old. Like, right. This is not okay. And I had people who were really, you know, able to show up and be like, you're deeply human. Right. Right. Speaking about being deeply human, I just have to, uh, add to my parking real quick. Um, but so in general, like how do you, how have you found diving into this? How, how do you find that affects people's relationships with others or maybe even, you know mm-hmm. Seeing myself or, or through your experience. Right. Because, you know, I want to tie this all into, like, this is part of like, um, I. A part of being built for love, right? It's like we're born into this world. That's what we want, right? Mm-hmm. We want love, and we want to love, but life takes us through all these experiences. Okay. And you know, at, at some point, whether you're aware of it or not, you know, you can find yourself being feeling unworthy of love. Hmm. So, but that, that doesn't just show up romantically. That shows up platonically as well for a lot of people. So how have you seen, you know mm-hmm. This work? Mm-hmm. I think, um, what we talked about, about the idea that we, we tend to think in hierarchies, right? So, um, we seek out the experts. Mm-hmm. We seek out the people that we think know more. And then the helper in us can delight in knowing more and being like, and here's the information that you needed. And I think the humility of it is more like. If we knew that everyone coming together was actually at a helper holic meeting, right? Like a sponsor in AA is a person who's been in aa. Right. It's not a person who's never had a problem with alcohol. Right. And so we have to remember, I think that healing has to feel like a meeting. Healing has to feel like we're all going through the same thing in our own little way. That's the same. And hierarchy needs to be let go of, and the equality of what we go through is what we have to embrace. Hmm. So I would say a lot of people, again, that might listen or are curious are people who are seeking out connection, like you said. Yeah. And seeking out a sense of balance in their connections. They want to have it, they want to have the experience. Um, and we're kind of trying to be here for them to be like, welcome to the meeting. Like, we're all in the same boat. Right. And it's okay to be really, really good at things and then to slowly learn that you know that you're. Also learning from those human connections, like you said, platonically, like, how do I risk this? How do I risk not being an expert? Hmm. Right. It's, it's frustrating because I don't know how you feel, but you know, we can both feel it sometimes where we're like, I go into the room and I know what's going on. Right. And my, my, my job is to know what's going on. And it's like, yeah. Where you do. Okay. Right. But what about the rest? Yeah. But I would just say based on what you shared about healing, um, and for everybody kind of like listening, most of the people listening will be people who are doing an exceptional job, who want to be more thoughtful and understanding. Otherwise, why would they dedicate time to learning more about it? Right. So we're trying to help those people that are reaching out through your podcast to be like, they're probably overdoing in their relationships and wondering how the other person could do more, but the other person doesn't seem capable of doing more. So what we might help them with is like, it's scary to meet an equal. It is very scary to ask for better things in your life. Yeah, and so the challenge of healing, as I understand it, is embracing truly interdependence and that if there is a plan, it's a plan for people to meet people that are able to actually see them, right? Not to have them be a giving tree and take care of people until they die. Hmm. And you and I can fall prey to the same thing, right? Right. We're gonna be like, no, that needs to be this way. That needs to be this way. So we can totally have compassion for every person who's like, no, it needs to be this way, and I don't care and I don't wanna talk about it. And know that we have parts of us that are the same. Right. So, which I think that that gives you a lot of, at least for me, it's given me a lot of clarity. I mean, I've, I, the word boundaries was thrown around, you know, my whole life. I hear, you know, I've heard that, what that was, but not up until these last few months did I really realize what boundaries were for me. Yeah. And it's like you were starting to learn a lot about how people overwhelm your boundaries and feel entitled to Right. If you ain't nourishing me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, there's no way I can pour into you like you're finally standing up for that boy. Right. Like, you don't get to take, you don't get to meet your needs without my permission. Right. You, you know, I understand you have a feeling and an experience, but I'm not, I wasn't sent by the universe to make sure you're okay, so I can be a conduit to you getting what you want. Right. And so many of those people will look at you and be like, that's why you're here. And you'll be like, no. That's how you put an end to the abuse pattern is like you don't get to continue to do that. Yeah. There's a truth in that. Lots of truth. So for those who are listening and resonating with this, what are some simple but powerful ways they can start to, or start reconnecting with themselves and their bodies today? Um, you know, everyone's process is very personal and, um, you know, there, there are things like we talked about, right? Like, you've done things I would never do, like you've done plant medicines and other things that I would be like, no, I'm I, my trauma and my issues would be, I would have an episode or a problem if I did those things. Like I would be the person that killed the people there, like I've done good sweat lodges and other things like that. I've done different things. So I never want to pretend that like there's stuff I would do and someone might say, you'd really benefit from that. And I'd be like, I'm not gonna do it. And someone watching might be like, you really should do that. You really need that. And that's what I wanna remind people of is like, I'm not saying anybody should be comfortable doing anything. I, I could be just as arrogant with breath work and other things because I could do 80 minutes of it at one point, right. And be like, it's all energy. It's all energy. And I'm like, yeah. But I guess what I would say is everyone's process is very personal and it's very difficult. I would say that there is for many people, um, a way that we can get sort of tangled. I had a client who I, who wanted to come in every week, and I should have seen it. I should have been like, come in once a month because this particular client was gonna really wanna work on his stuff. And if we, if we kept going week after week, I was like, Hmm, no. And what ended up happening was we kept doing the sessions week after week and I'm, and I kept bringing up the issues to work on. And what I learned was, you know, like what I didn't wanna admit to myself, which was this person is way more interested in staying angry about these things than he is interested about changing any of this. He wants to tell himself that he wants to change it, but actually his commitment to his anger is way more. Right. So there's a minority in his, in his people. Right, right. In his country of self. There is a, there is a minority of people that are like, we would like to be less angry and forgive and be more wise and not be so defensive or have as many issues about our bodies or our life or whatever. But the majority running that is like, no. We're staying angry. We're resenting people that hurt us. We're gonna stay mad at mom and dad. We are gonna stay really, really angry. Right? And the idea is that if you're not angry, you're not validating the person's position. That's where we butt heads, because I was like, and it's hilarious'cause it's kind of hypocritical. I'm like, oh, I was, I was enraged for many, many years. Why would I judge his rage? Mm-hmm. And you just realize like, maybe it's my desire for connection that wants to help him see that like all this anger is blocking. But I was really trying to make him make a connection and I wanted to keep seeing him instead of saying, it's gonna be too much, we have to back off. And I got it wrong. And he was like, it's too intense to do this. It's like, and I wanted to sort of say, no, it's not too intense. It's that you are, you're not interested in actually having any of this change. You're interested in and you're interested in saying you wanted to change. And part of him could come through and be exhausted with how angry he was and sad. And he could glimpse it and I was like, oh, it's there. He sees it. And it was like, no, the anger's gonna win for right now. And that's an example of a life where the anger might win forever. And this life. It happens. It does happen. It absolutely happens. Yeah. Oh, look around. It happens a lot, right? No, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I would just challenge people to, you know, yep. Breath can help, body work can help finding their way to something, noticing things in themselves that, that are uncomfortable. Um, but yeah, different people can find different answers. Meditation, like you said, different things. Everyone is so sure about the value of each thing, but people gotta find their own path. Absolutely. Yeah. I love that. Well, Kevin, this conversation has been incredibly powerful and there's so much wisdom in what, you know, we've shared in the conversations we've had today. I know our listeners are gonna take a lot from it. Uh, but before we close out, is there anything else you'd like to share to, with the listeners, whether it's a final thought, a piece of advice, or something you wanna leave other than what you've just shared? Um, it's been great. Thanks so much for being willing to do it. I guess I would say, you know, to every person out there, I think a lot of the people that we're talking to are people that are really strong in their lives, and so I would just sort of thank them for being that. Mm. And thank them for the efforts that they make, um, because their thoughtfulness, um, we need a pandemic of thoughtfulness in our world. And I'm not gonna hold my breath for it, but I like, I like the idea that there's a handful of people out there that are like, wait, how can we do this a little bit better? Right. So I would, I would say thank you, you know, for those of you listening who are trying to do this a bit better, because if you look around, that is not a common thing. Well, I absolutely appreciate you. Sharing, you know, um, your, your, what goes on in your mind and, and how you see everything. You know, for me, I, I am a very, what I would say, I'm always, I'm always constantly looking to expand my spirituality. And I find that in our sessions, um, it very much does like a huge impact on that in, in the best of ways, in the deepest of ways and in, in the most challenging ways. But I, I, it's an expansion again, and, you know, I've sent several people your way. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. And everybody's experience is different. And I appre what I appreciate from the distance is how you, I don't know how you do it, but how you are able to tailor each experience based off of like what, you know, for lack of a better word, and not to offend anybody, but the capacity that they have. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it's, it's a very. Unique experience for everyone where it's like, my first experience, and I don't say this to scare anybody, I say this like, it was amazing, but it's like I cried like, yeah, yeah, yeah. 95% of the time. No, no, no. That's that, that, again, that's, you know, that's part of the, the same thing I talked about, about the ayahuasca. Like at different stages of my work, I have become really ungrounded and sometimes productively ungrounded and also destructively. Ungrounded. And you were kind of meeting me at a time where I. That was hitting an apex for me. Mm-hmm. So like our last few sessions are different. Right. The last couple sessions are different because part of what I was healing was you can't just make every single thing happen in one moment. Mm-hmm. And so on one level, you were somehow ready for that. And I'm grateful because like during that time when you're like, you know, a human tsunami, right? Or you're like a volcano is making room for new land, it's like, it's also destroying everything. Right. You know, in my own life I have had to go through many cycles that I eventually had to look at and be like. Okay. You need to just, you need to slow this down for you. And that's what you and others have helped me learn too, as we go through really intense things. Right. But, but the shape shifting thing you're talking about where you try to tune into what the person really resonates with, I do think that that's a, a beautiful capacity for all of us to try to cultivate is a little bit more of those mirror neurons empathy thing. Mm-hmm. Where we try to care a little bit more accurately about what we're going through. Right. And so definitely for me it was like I want to see others the way that, that, um, maybe we weren't seen. Right. We can both feel that. Right. And I think a lot of people listening will be like, yeah, I want, our dream is to be seen the way that we see others. And, um, it's why I would really like, you know, that experience of doing this with you because I'd be like, oh, he's about the same thing and we need to encourage that. And yeah, that's what I would just, I would just say is, um, really cool about what, what you bring. But you're right. Like it's very different for everybody and. It also is called a practice for a reason.'cause you're learning. Yeah. And you know, again, I'm, I'm a quarter of a century into this practice and I'm most, I know far less now at 50 than. I did a few years back. Right. That guy was way more into himself and his rightness. And I recorded a bunch of stuff and I wrote a bunch of stuff, and all of it was very, very right. And, and it was, it was like being on a binge or a bender. It's, it is, it's like a consciousness bender. You've taken me to that work of I thought I had my life figured out. And then it's like, you don't know shit. And that's okay. That's okay. That's absolutely okay. It's never, you don't know shit. It, it's that, it's that, look at all the ass you get, right? And then there's this class where it's a C minus and it's like, it's like, but a though, and it's like, yeah, but the, but the trying to have that control of figuring it all out by yourself. Yeah. It's not gonna happen. but I think that's a, the cool thing about this conversation, and I'll end it with this mm-hmm. On my side of it, which is, I am a life and love architect, uh, life coach, spiritual coach. Um, and so I do have many tools and I. Lots of wisdom to help others heal, right? Mm-hmm. It's like, I, I can't physically do the work for you, but I can guide you through that. Mm-hmm. Just like yourself. But this is a community, like we have the people that nourish us and that heal us as well. And that's where like, I'm, I'm grateful for that. And that's, yeah. I want surround myself and those are the people that I look to learn even more from, are the ones that are, are visibly still healing, right. Because that's how you know. Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, there's some type of path there, right? That we come into their world as humble beings that are just like, here's, here's how it's going for us, right? And how's it going for you? Right? Rather than as experts, right? With the tablets. And here is what we, here is what is truth. And here is right. Here's what is healing. And, and if you'd done this two years ago with me or whatever, it would've been much more. And here's what is true and here's what is this, and here's because I needed that for me, but, but there's no successful formula that's gonna work for everyone. No. At all. Like each and every one of your journeys is. Is unique and, and valid. I, I, I'll say that. So, uh, for those of you, and if you need help with it, you can find us. You can find him. You can find me. Whatever you, yes. So if you're feeling And only us forever, wait, no. We're the only experts. Here's the surprise cult meetings. Suddenly it's just us. No, it's Find the people, you'll find people around you. But if you are having trouble with that, yes. Reach out to Javi or whatever, let us know and we'll, we'll try to help. If you wanna explore that deeper work or if you wanna connect with Kevin. Mm-hmm. Um, you can email us at Built for Love podcast@gmail.com and you can also reach out to us on, do you have a longer email maybe that they, they could send it to Built For Love podcast. The only healers, uh, no, uh, helper holics at aol slash yahoo slash gmail. Kidding. Do gov dog Exactly. Dot gov. That's a big one, right? Trust us. We're a.gov. That's right. That's right. All right. Uh, so, uh, repeat, repeat the actual emails. It is Built For Love podcast at Gmail. Yeah. Built for Love podcast@gmail.com. Um, but again, thank you. Thank you so much, Kevin. I'm so surprised that was available. Right, right. I know. I was like, I'm gonna call this boat for love. That's gotta be taken. It wasn't, and I'm like, okay. All right. I'm grateful onto to something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but yeah, so thank you again for sharing your wisdom and, uh, you know, the work that you do. You do. I, I appreciate you and. You know, just how much you've helped me on my journey, and you know, how we were able to have this conversation for others. And to those of you listening, I hope this episode gave you some new perspective, different outlook on what healing really is and why. Understanding yourself, your patterns, your nervous system, your core beliefs is one of the most important things you can do in your life. And because at the end of the day, healing isn't just about us. It's about how we show up in the world. It's about how we love, how we connect, and how we hold space for others. The more we heal, the more we allow ourselves to love freely, without fear, without projection, without the weight of the past holding us back. So if you're on your own journey of healing and transformation, remember this love isn't something we chase. It's something we're built. We are, we are. Sorry. Love isn't something we chase, it's something we're built for. All right, y'all sending you all love and I'll catch you in the next episode of Built For Love.